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 Post subject: Retro Rpgs
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:46 am 
You know what im talking about =]

old school D & D games

the phantasy star series

ohohoh and gauntlet :D



So what ones did you guys play?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:38 pm 
DER LANGRISSER FTW!!!


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:07 pm 
Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy 7, Vagrants story


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 11:37 am 
lots of love vagrent story and ff7 too. ff7 realy was the best game of its time.


Last edited by Darcabyss on Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 11:58 am 
I dunno, Vagrant Story's Risk mechanic never really appealed to me. More than once I'd be forced to run around in circles during a boss battle because I'd run out of Risk-reducing potions and my chance-to-hit had dropped below 5%

FF7 was good, though to this day I have no idea how I managed to end up with 4 copies of it (1 english, 1 Japanese original release, 1 Japanese International release, and 1 special edition that came with the HUUUGE Advent Children box set from Japan). If the rumours about a pd3 remake are true, I'll probably end up getting that at some point too >.<

The best old-school CRPGs for my money are Baldur's Gate, Eye of the Beholder and Secret of Mana though. I never had a chance to play Planescape, but I'm told that it was amazing too.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 2:32 pm 
Darcabyss wrote:
lots of love VAGRENT STORY AND FF7 TOO. FF7 REALY WAS THE BEST GAME OF ITS TIME.


A generic rpg that added little to the genre beyond FMV (oh how I love you, watching a movie when I want to play..) is the best game of it's time? Most people would go for Mario 64 as the best game of it's time. But then I don't get the love for FF7, I was playing RPGs before I could even read (They probably helped teach me to do so) and it didn't stand out all that much to me. I much preferred 8, because the world was just so much more interesting visually, and if there is one thing in RPGs I like, it's a pretty dungeon.

I'm rather upset that the Mana (seiken densetsu) series has not yet been mentioned, while the series has gone to Coventry recently, it's hard to deny that the 2nd game (Secret of mana) is not one of the defining SNES era RPGs and still holds up well today.

I quite enjoy Strategy RPGs and I think my first was Shining force 2. I don't think I ever finished it, but it was a grand old game and who doesn't love having a badass midget turtle to kick Spotted Owl with?

Depending on how you class retro, Goldensun needs a mention. It took the best of the SNES era and brought it to the GBA, it's one of those games you can use to judge an RPG fans experience by too. Older fans think the long conversations are fine and enjoyable, newer fans complain constantly that people talk a lot and it 'slows the game down'.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 2:39 pm 
In my humble opinion, the Seiken Densetsu series is as overrated as the Final Fantasy series. True, SD2 (Secret of Mana) was a true gem that I still enjoy playing from time to time, but the sequels never failed to disappoint.

But while I'm busy dissing games instead of praising them, I'd like to point out the ... SaGa series. I'll admit that I've only played 2 of them, but I really just couldn't abide them at all. At least the FF games made an attempt to disguise the fact you were being strictly railroaded for the first few hours of gameplay.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 3:29 pm 
Daremonai wrote:
In my humble opinion, the Seiken Densetsu series is as overrated as the Final Fantasy series. True, SD2 (Secret of Mana) was a true gem that I still enjoy playing from time to time, but the sequels never failed to disappoint.

But while I'm busy dissing games instead of praising them, I'd like to point out the ... SaGa series. I'll admit that I've only played 2 of them, but I really just couldn't abide them at all. At least the FF games made an attempt to disguise the fact you were being strictly railroaded for the first few hours of gameplay.


I think very few people will disagree with your mana statement to be honest. The first 3 were good, but then it just went into terrible spin offs. If you're looking for a real modern day Mana then FF:CC ring of fates is very much on the same track, but it's 3D.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:37 pm 
ff7 was the first 3d rpg. When it came out, it was unheard of t have a game so indepth that was 3d and the fmv's had amazing graphics that can still stand up to some of the newer games, they might have been long and at times your were edging to play but they did bring so much more depth to the game and advanced the story amazingly well. and besides who doesnt like playing a soldier thats been made in a test tube to be a perfect soldier embued with the powers of the earth lots of love it was a landmark for the genere in my opinion and its a game i very much still enjoy playing. i will admit after that point the series did go downhill a little but many people will still have fond memories of playing as cloud and the gang


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 8:09 pm 
Darcabyss wrote:
ff7 was the first 3d rpg. When it came out, it was unheard of t have a game so indepth that was 3d and the fmv's had amazing graphics that can still stand up to some of the newer games, they might have been long and at times your were edging to play but they did bring so much more depth to the game and advanced the story amazingly well. and besides who doesnt like playing a soldier thats been made in a test tube to be a perfect soldier embued with the powers of the earth lots of love it was a landmark for the genere in my opinion and its a game i very much still enjoy playing. i will admit after that point the series did go downhill a little but many people will still have fond memories of playing as cloud and the gang


I do believe your post is incorrect. It was not the first 3D RPG, I don't recall names but I'm positive there was at least 1 before it (not as well known mind you), it was the first mainstream 3D RPG though.

FMVs compare to say.. Half life 2 even? I disagree heavily. The FMVs look terrible, replaying the game half a year ago I was confused as to why I thought they were so good, there are a few pre-rendered backgrounds which are fantastic, but the FMVs themselves aren't very good at all. I think rose tinted glasses are in effect..

The plot didn't stand out as anything special, we've had very similar things over and over, as I recall 7s plot is also very close to 6s plot in many respects and it's just difficult to care for 7 when I went back to it. Cloud just doesn't work for me as a hero, I've heard the story too many times and you just get tired of it. You can pretty much break down FF7 into it's components (I won't) and lay them out to spell a generic RPG. Evil organization, cold hero who warms up to the others and has some huge dark past, but who apparently isn't manly enough to stand out as a man in a lady of negotiable affection house..

I have always considered 7 to be the tourist trap of RPGs, when it was released it showed what an RPG was and did it to a reasonable level, but as it got more popular it started to just get warped and was labeled as "the greatest thing ever!" while everyone who had first discovered it had since moved onto other waters to avoid that exact mentality. I don't think I explained that well but it's difficult to put into words, but the game feels corrupted by the very people who love it, so it's hard to sit down with it and play it now, without having to mentally argue with yourself over every single detail.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:03 am 
It's worth pointing out with the "not manly enough to stand out" thing that Japan pretty much started the whole effemminate-pretty-boy as the male ideal thing, hence the name bishounen (often shortened to "bishie" on these shores). Ignoring the fact that the guy-dressed-as girl-pulls-stupid-guards trope has been used repeatedly throughout the media of all nations over the years, that scene can be excused to a degree.

On the other hand, you're pretty much spot on with the rest of it, although you didn't mention the lousy translation. I haven't met a single FF game that didn't suffer from poor translation resulting in a confused story, and I've played most of them in English and the original Japanese. And let's not start with the millions of people in MMOs and forums whose name is some variation on Cloud, Aeris or Sephiroth.

Still, somehow I remain a fan of FF7 despite its myriad faults. I suspect that it's because it was the first one I played (I played 1-6 after 7, though right now I can't remember which ones never got a English-language release and which did), but for whatever reason it has a place in my gaming heart


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:15 am 
Daremonai wrote:
It's worth pointing out with the "not manly enough to stand out" thing that Japan pretty much started the whole effemminate-pretty-boy as the male ideal thing, hence the name bishounen (often shortened to "bishie" on these shores). Ignoring the fact that the guy-dressed-as girl-pulls-stupid-guards trope has been used repeatedly throughout the media of all nations over the years, that scene can be excused to a degree.

On the other hand, you're pretty much spot on with the rest of it, although you didn't mention the lousy translation. I haven't met a single FF game that didn't suffer from poor translation resulting in a confused story, and I've played most of them in English and the original Japanese. And let's not start with the millions of people in MMOs and forums whose name is some variation on Cloud, Aeris or Sephiroth.

Still, somehow I remain a fan of FF7 despite its myriad faults. I suspect that it's because it was the first one I played (I played 1-6 after 7, though right now I can't remember which ones never got a English-language release and which did), but for whatever reason it has a place in my gaming heart


I'm aware of the Japanese cultural love of cross dressing. Just Daventry doesn't exactly say "hey, these guys are going to understand Japanese culture", turns out I was wrong.

Translation in general is just a terrible mess though. I speak a little Japanese (meaning, I've watched one too many super robot shows and picked up quite a bit) and when I have Japanese audio and then see the same scene with English translation, the lost context is just crazy. I get that cultures aren't going to be perfect matches, but it's as if they just completely ignore so much context that it's frustrating.

I often think rather than trying to translate the story accurately, they just go for the cheapest and easiest translators. One's rather sad to see what American companies do to Japanese games, a perfectly enjoyable game can be completely ruined by America's complete lack of good voice acting talent, even though if they just left the original voices alone no one would complain about it.

But we're getting off topic.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 10:11 am 
Dot Agumon wrote:
One's rather sad to see what American companies do to Japanese games, a perfectly enjoyable game can be completely ruined by America's complete lack of good voice acting talent, even though if they just left the original voices alone no one would complain about it.


This is one of my major complaints about anything Japanese that gets released in English - it always seems to be a far less impressive gaming/viewing experience, to the point that it's turned into something rather... dumb.
Subtitles are better than dubs for me (in terms of films, at least) but even then, as has been discussed, the written translation can be so poor that the whole story loses it's proper meaning.

But back to games and retro rpgs:

Despite the debate that is raging about Final Fantasy, I will happily stand up and be counted as a fan of these games. I personally love the stories for their in-depth incomprehensibility, and only feel that it's a shame I don't speak Japanese well enough to get the original versions and gain a better understanding of them.

Indidentally - Daremonai, you have played the Japanese version of FF7 - do you speak Japanese?


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 11:50 am 
Helios wrote:
Dot Agumon wrote:
One's rather sad to see what American companies do to Japanese games, a perfectly enjoyable game can be completely ruined by America's complete lack of good voice acting talent, even though if they just left the original voices alone no one would complain about it.


This is one of my major complaints about anything Japanese that gets released in English - it always seems to be a far less impressive gaming/viewing experience, to the point that it's turned into something rather... dumb.
Subtitles are better than dubs for me (in terms of films, at least) but even then, as has been discussed, the written translation can be so poor that the whole story loses it's proper meaning.

But back to games and retro rpgs:

Despite the debate that is raging about Final Fantasy, I will happily stand up and be counted as a fan of these games. I personally love the stories for their in-depth incomprehensibility, and only feel that it's a shame I don't speak Japanese well enough to get the original versions and gain a better understanding of them.

Indidentally - Daremonai, you have played the Japanese version of FF7 - do you speak Japanese?


I have found even official subtitles can often be horrible. Having some knowledge of the language just makes it painful to watch a lot of official things and to be perfectly honest I do believe the fansub culture around anime and manga is far superior to most official things. One thing I have found interesting is fans of the Japanese audio will often edit official releases and replace all the audio with the Japanese one, then release the game in the pirate community. You would think companies might get the hint, when it's at the point where people will spend hours and hours doing that kind of thing just to play the original game subbed.

On the flip side, I'm quite a fan of Japanese mecha and there is zero chance of most the games I want to play even being considered for any sort of translation. For example the Super Robot Taisen series are excellent games and highly enjoyable (plus great to catch your eye for a new series), but with the American money grab culture, there is no way that they could ever license the series in any of the main line of games, so it's in Japanese no matter what. After about 5 games, the menus are now pretty much as good as in English to me, but very few people want to put the effort into learning them and as such it's a shame that excellent games will never be known outside of fanboys.

I wouldn't say FF games aren't good, I would say they are just the catch all generic RPGs in general and the main line is not where I personally would hunt my RPGs. I feel they are cash grabs for the general masses and FF really shines in it's spin offs, where they do lots of interesting things. I absolutely adore the Crystal Chronicles world and if I'm perfectly honest, I'll buy any CC games they release, if I think it looks good or not, purely because it has such an interesting world that I want to explore it even if I don't care for some of the game mechanics. While the 2 games released so far have their flaws, the art direction is second to none, and it feels like an old school FF art been made 3D. Plus we have midgets wearing buckets on their heads and wielding polearms three times their size, I fail to see how that is not the mark of a game series you should support.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:27 pm 
well we have had a nice discussion about ff7 what about the other rpg i mentioned in the post vagrent story with its unique risk system and battle styles? how many people have played it and what do they think.


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