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 Post subject: RPG Rules Questions and Answers
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:02 pm 
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Use this thread to ask questions of the Vault's Denizens.

The Vault is home to many players and GMs, of many different RPG systems. Whether you want
  • an opinion on interpreting the rules of a games as they are written...
  • or you want to ask if an ad hoc ruling you plan to use (as long as it's not a whole new HOMEBREW rule) is fair...
  • or if you want to know if any rule exists for a situation that you can't see in the books you've got…
  • or anything RPG rules-related
...between us, someone will have the answer you're looking for.

Some rules for the rules thread:
  • Be sure to note which system you're asking about.
  • Number your questions, so that answers can be numbered to trace back easily.
  • Don't post copyright material in your questions or answers - use page references for large passages and quote only the relevant sentence to explain yourself.


Examples:
Altair wrote:
Q1: (D&D 3.5) How many HP does a Paladin get at 1st level?

UltimateDM wrote:
A1: 10, plus any adjustment from your CON.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:00 pm 
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Q1: (D&D 3.5) Opinions or defining answers wanted:
Imagine a character is using the Disguise Self spell to alter their appearance to that of an unarmed person (the spell description states it can change the appearance of weapons and equipment). If they attack with a weapon that has been disguised, say, as a carrot, are their opponents surprised automatically, or what?
I've thought about it being a Feint action (the opponents are bluffed into believing the character is unarmed). Any other suggestions?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:07 pm 
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A1: My gut instinct is to say that yes, the defender is surprised. Imagine if somebody lunged at you with a carrot, you would't think to defend yourself with any alacrity because, well, it's only a carrot! If, however, the attacker is holding the carrot as he would the weapon it is disguising, or in an aggressive fashion, then the defender may get an inkling that something is up so you might want to make the attacker feint/bluff accordingly.

Not sure if any of that helps really, but you did ask for opinion :)

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:18 pm 
Altair-the-Vexed wrote:
Q1: (D&D 3.5) Opinions or defining answers wanted:
Imagine a character is using the Disguise Self spell to alter their appearance to that of an unarmed person (the spell description states it can change the appearance of weapons and equipment). If they attack with a weapon that has been disguised, say, as a carrot, are their opponents surprised automatically, or what?
I've thought about it being a Feint action (the opponents are bluffed into believing the character is unarmed). Any other suggestions?


A 1.2:

The feint thing could work - the spell functions as in the description, until such time as you choose to attack with your 'carrot', at which point you must attempt a bluff check to leave the opponent(s) flat footed.

However, another method could be found in the spell description itself:
"A creature that interacts with the glamer gets a Will save to recognise it as an illusion."
Even though this refers more to actual physical contact with the spell's subject, this could also come into play when a creature is attacked with a disguised weapon.

Or a creature who is attacked with a disguised weapon gets a listen and spot check for: 1) noticing any sounds the 'carrot' is making that it shouldn't make, and 2) noticing that the way in which the glamer is weilding said 'carrot' or 'dagger' or 'battleaxe' is unnatural (eg too fast for such a heavy weapon, too slow for such a light weapon, or... trying to stab you with a carrot :roll: ).
The DC of the checks could increase or decrease according to the situation.

For simplicity's sake though, I would be more tempted to go with one of the first two! :?

*note to self* pay attention to anyone holding nothing but a carrot in Alastair's games from now on...


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 Post subject: my opinion of disguise self
PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:12 am 
By its very definition it’s a first level spell.

I guess the question is not so much about a weapon being made to look like something else about how others perceive you.

Of coarse if you can move up to someone and if they are of guard you will have surprise. So therefore an advantage probably a plus two advantage to hit makes sense.

However the real advantage of disguise self is to blend in with a crowd or look like someone else.

Hope that helps


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 Post subject: Re: my opinion of disguise self
PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 12:07 pm 
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A:1 I'm not really answering myself now... Thanks for the suggestions, this is a compilation of your ideas:

The DMG defines "surprise" as "when only one side is aware of the other" (pg23) - so Disguise Self will not give a character a surprise round.
It isn't easier to hit a person when they're unaware of an impending attack except by virtue of their loss of Dex bonus - the Flat Footed rule. You don't get bonuses to task checks when the opponent is less able, they get a penalty to defend. This couples with the Feint rules - I rule that the +10 bonus to Disguise checks given by the Disguise Self spell will apply in the example above to the first instance of Bluff used to Feint.
The confusing appearance of the Disguised character grants a +2 bonus to his initiative, because no-one is expecting him lunge in to attack with a carrot.
Spot and Listen checks may apply before the Disguised character attacks, as per the normal rules for the Disguise skill.
Interacting with the Disguised character before his attack may give a Will save to disbelieve the illusion, as per normal rules on the spell.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 1:09 pm 
Q 2

(D20 Modern, or even DnD 3.5)

The diplomacy section in the D20 Modern rulebook does not talk about what penalties to apply to someone's diplomacy check if they are openly carrying a weapon, or even waving it around while trying to talk to people.

Any suggestions?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 6:13 pm 
A1. In a world where people carry and use weapons on a regular basis, if someone lunged at me in a manner similar to an attack, I would likely react as though someone were lunging at me in a manner similar to an attack, regardless of if they were wielding a carrot or a glaive-guisarme-glaive.

A2. I'd imagine that in D&D carrying weapons would be fairly unremarkable except for perhaps as a mark of rank (if you can afford a sword and armour, you're not some common pleb?). In D20 modern...I suppose it would depend on who you were dealing with. I imagine that the military or police wouldn't be fazed when talking to another armed officer. Anyone else....that sounds like a conditional boni/penaltie to me.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:56 am 
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Q3: (d20 Modern) Opinion and comments wanted.
Open Game License System Resource Document wrote:
Autofire
If a ranged weapon has an automatic rate of fire, a character may set it on autofire. Autofire affects an area and everyone in it, not a specific creature. The character targets a 10-foot-by-10-foot area and makes an attack roll; the targeted area has an effective Defense of 10. (If the character does not have the Advanced Firearms Proficiency feat, he or she takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll.) If the attack succeeds, every creature within the affected area must make a Reflex save (DC 15) or take the weapon’s damage.

Using the rule above, if one uses autofire to attack a vehicle and its crew, what happens?

Does the driver of the vehicle make a Reflex save to avoid damage to his vehicle in the autofire area?

Are the characters in the vehicle required to make a Reflex save to avoid damage?

If the driver did avoid damage with his Reflex save, does that save everyone in the vehicle from damage?

Note that Reflex saves are not treated as movement - your character is still in the same 5ft square after making a Ref save. If the driver gets a Ref save to avoid damage to the vehicle, he's not moving out of the autofire area, so shouldn't the passengers need to make saves to avoid damage? But if they do, how can they be damaged while the vehicle they are in is not?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:27 am 
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Altair-the-Vexed wrote:
Q3: (d20 Modern) Opinion and comments wanted.
Open Game License System Resource Document wrote:
Autofire
If a ranged weapon has an automatic rate of fire, a character may set it on autofire. Autofire affects an area and everyone in it, not a specific creature. The character targets a 10-foot-by-10-foot area and makes an attack roll; the targeted area has an effective Defense of 10. (If the character does not have the Advanced Firearms Proficiency feat, he or she takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll.) If the attack succeeds, every creature within the affected area must make a Reflex save (DC 15) or take the weapon’s damage.

Using the rule above, if one uses autofire to attack a vehicle and its crew, what happens?

Does the driver of the vehicle make a Reflex save to avoid damage to his vehicle in the autofire area?

Are the characters in the vehicle required to make a Reflex save to avoid damage?

If the driver did avoid damage with his Reflex save, does that save everyone in the vehicle from damage?

Note that Reflex saves are not treated as movement - your character is still in the same 5ft square after making a Ref save. If the driver gets a Ref save to avoid damage to the vehicle, he's not moving out of the autofire area, so shouldn't the passengers need to make saves to avoid damage? But if they do, how can they be damaged while the vehicle they are in is not?


A3.The reality of the situation is that a standard vehicle does not offer that much protection from gunfire other than making its occupants harder to hit due to motion.

I would say the chance of your reflexes causing a vehicle to dodge out of the way of an AK-47 on full auto is little to none so the vehicle.

IMO the vehicle should be hit on a normal to hit roll with relevant penatlies for hitting a moving target.

Each occupant should then make a reflex save to see if they can make themselves a tiny ball before they actually get shot at.

one to hit roll on the car and then randomly distributed damage (due to ricocet) amongst the occupants that fail the reflex save.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:42 am 
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Harroguk wrote:
Altair-the-Vexed wrote:
Q3: (d20 Modern) Opinion and comments wanted.
Open Game License System Resource Document wrote:
Autofire
If a ranged weapon has an automatic rate of fire, a character may set it on autofire. Autofire affects an area and everyone in it, not a specific creature. The character targets a 10-foot-by-10-foot area and makes an attack roll; the targeted area has an effective Defense of 10. (If the character does not have the Advanced Firearms Proficiency feat, he or she takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll.) If the attack succeeds, every creature within the affected area must make a Reflex save (DC 15) or take the weapon’s damage.

Using the rule above, if one uses autofire to attack a vehicle and its crew, what happens?

Does the driver of the vehicle make a Reflex save to avoid damage to his vehicle in the autofire area?

Are the characters in the vehicle required to make a Reflex save to avoid damage?

If the driver did avoid damage with his Reflex save, does that save everyone in the vehicle from damage?

Note that Reflex saves are not treated as movement - your character is still in the same 5ft square after making a Ref save. If the driver gets a Ref save to avoid damage to the vehicle, he's not moving out of the autofire area, so shouldn't the passengers need to make saves to avoid damage? But if they do, how can they be damaged while the vehicle they are in is not?


A3.The reality of the situation is that a standard vehicle does not offer that much protection from gunfire other than making its occupants harder to hit due to motion.

I would say the chance of your reflexes causing a vehicle to dodge out of the way of an AK-47 on full auto is little to none so the vehicle.

IMO the vehicle should be hit on a normal to hit roll with relevant penatlies for hitting a moving target.

Each occupant should then make a reflex save to see if they can make themselves a tiny ball before they actually get shot at.

one to hit roll on the car and then randomly distributed damage (due to ricocet) amongst the occupants that fail the reflex save.

So no Reflex save to avoid damage to the vehicle?

The poor protection or otherwise of vehicles is built into the hardness of said vehicles - armoured cars get more hardness (and take less damage) than a Citroen 2CV.

So an attacker rolls to hit the vehicle with autofire (rather than the 10x10 ft space). If he hits, he does damage to the vehicle, and everyone inside has to make a Reflex save. If he misses, everyone inside is fine.

Make sense to me.
*trains autocannons on PC party's car*

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:03 pm 
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A3:
Altair-the-Vexed wrote:
So no Reflex save to avoid damage to the vehicle?

The poor protection or otherwise of vehicles is built into the hardness of said vehicles - armoured cars get more hardness (and take less damage) than a Citroen 2CV.

So an attacker rolls to hit the vehicle with autofire (rather than the 10x10 ft space). If he hits, he does damage to the vehicle, and everyone inside has to make a Reflex save. If he misses, everyone inside is fine.


Is there a check against the hardieness of a vehicle anywhere in this as currently I read it like a tank is easier to hit than a Ferrari as it moves slower (which is true) however if the tank is hit, all occupants start rolling reflex saves (which isnt true, shoot at my tank with your AK all you want, I will drive over you).

Maybe I should be reading it like
Quote:
So an attacker rolls to hit the vehicle with autofire (rather than the 10x10 ft space). If he hits, AND he does damage to the vehicle, everyone inside has to make a Reflex save. If he misses, or doesnt damage the vehicle, then everyone inside is fine.


That would probably make more sense to me.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:19 pm 
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A3:
Harroguk wrote:
Altair-the-Vexed wrote:
So no Reflex save to avoid damage to the vehicle?

The poor protection or otherwise of vehicles is built into the hardness of said vehicles - armoured cars get more hardness (and take less damage) than a Citroen 2CV.

So an attacker rolls to hit the vehicle with autofire (rather than the 10x10 ft space). If he hits, he does damage to the vehicle, and everyone inside has to make a Reflex save. If he misses, everyone inside is fine.


Is there a check against the hardieness of a vehicle anywhere in this as currently I read it like a tank is easier to hit than a Ferrari as it moves slower (which is true) however if the tank is hit, all occupants start rolling reflex saves (which isnt true, shoot at my tank with your AK all you want, I will drive over you).

Maybe I should be reading it like
Quote:
So an attacker rolls to hit the vehicle with autofire (rather than the 10x10 ft space). If he hits, AND he does damage to the vehicle, everyone inside has to make a Reflex save. If he misses, or doesnt damage the vehicle, then everyone inside is fine.


That would probably make more sense to me.

It depends on the amount of cover the vehicle occupants get - a tank provides full cover, whereas a bicycle gives none. It's possible to hit a tough vehicle like a flatbed truck and do no damage to the truck (because it has a high hardness score), but still hit occupants of the vehicle because they are exposed.
In a vehicle with full cover, occupants only need to make a Ref save if the vehicle's hardness is exceeded by the damage dealt to the vehicle.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:28 pm 
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A3:
this reffing thing turns out to be a whole lort more complex than i thought. maybe i should just keep my head out of it.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:39 pm 
Moderation: Just did a bit of housekeeping and added some numbering to the previous few posts as per the rules in the original post. Carry on. :)


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