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 Post subject: Magic Items discussion
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 11:25 pm 
Noise Maker
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Before we start, a reminder of my opinions on magic items:
http://running-the-game.blogspot.co.uk/ ... art-1.html
http://running-the-game.blogspot.co.uk/ ... art-2.html

TL:DR?
I don't like lots of permanent magic items cluttering up heroes and getting in the way of figuring out how to defeat monsters for yourselves.

Permanent items:
When this last came up, we talked briefly about limiting the number of permanent items a character could have - not by cash value, but by an absolute cap.
I've thought about that for a while now, and I think it's the best solution so far. Here's my plan for that:

Permanent magic items must be attuned to the user, or they stay dormant. You can only have one attuned item per 2 levels: 1 @ 1st, 2 @ 3rd, 3 @ 5th.
Maybe we'll add a feat to allow one more at Epic?

Attuning an item takes 24 hours of continual possession, and a dedication ritual (which is discovered during the identification of the item). The ritual takes 10 minutes.
If you try to attune too many items, you must renounce one that you previously attuned. You can still possess it, and use its mundane properties (if any), but you don't gain its magical benefits.

Weapons:
Weapons are best at hurting enemies - it's against their nature to do anything else, and this includes adding magical properties to them. Thus, you may only add direct damage dealing effects to weapons as continual effects.
Any other effect must be added as a command-word effect, with a number of uses per day.
(Ammunitions count as limited magic items, not permanent items.)

Armour and shields:
These are best at protecting people, so you may only add directly protective effects to armour and shields as continual effects.
Any other effects must be added as a command-word effect, with a number of uses per day.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 11:30 pm 
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I like the atunement idea.

Makes sense to me.

In the iron kingdoms, character can only 'bond' to certain number of magical items.

Would limit the golf bag of magical weapons


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 Post subject: Re: Magic Items discussion
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 8:02 pm 
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Raising this issue again: are we generally satisfied with these rules, above?

  • Attuning - is this okay as written? Should anyone be able to attune faster than other classes (say 1 minute instead of 10)?
  • Weapon and armour effect restrictions - is this okay as written?

These rules won't change the magic items you've already got, but will change what you could make (or have made for you) in future.

(I'm not going to change the rules mid-combat, by the way - what we run with next session will be a continuation of the rules we've previously used.)

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 Post subject: Re: Magic Items discussion
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:18 pm 
I'm happy with the 2 points as above. But then, I've been getting by with only 2 items for a while now :)


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 Post subject: Re: Magic Items discussion
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:20 pm 
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This question is still open: Attuning and Armour and weapon restrictions.
I'd still like opinions from Helen, Chris, and Beardy!

"I have no strong feelings" is a valid answer.
"I think this is a stupid idea" is a valid answer - but please offer an alternate suggestion.

Please let me know what you think.

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 Post subject: Re: Magic Items discussion
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 11:45 pm 
Sí, esto es aceptable para mí.

The option of taking an epic feat for an extra slot is also good, I think.


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 Post subject: Re: Magic Items discussion
PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:22 am 
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All seems good. I don't see anything that immediately shouts "change me" in this.

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 Post subject: Re: Magic Items discussion
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 5:25 pm 
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Consent from all is now assumed. Let the rules be written!

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 Post subject: Re: Magic Items discussion
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 8:46 pm 
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Received some new feedback - casters are getting hurt a little by this ruling, as they rely on magic items more than other classes.

Firstly, do we think this is correct?

Secondly, assuming this is correct, what can we do about it?

I've had a couple of ideas:

I've already in my draft of the rules on the wiki introduced a rule to let casters attune to an item immediately on acquiring it, so that you only need a ten minute prep to use any of the permanent items you carry.
D'you think that'll help?

I was also thinking that any item that you create and use for yourself would not count against your maximum number of attuned items.
Does that seem reasonable?

Do you have any other ideas to reduce the glass cannon issue?

Helen, Chris, Ninje, Pete and Jack: Please give me your feedback ASAP - this question has been hanging around since September, and I really want to resolve it soon.

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 Post subject: Re: Magic Items discussion
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 11:05 pm 
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I don't necessarily think it is this rule that is causing the glass cannon issue, but magic items have been my solution. The D&D caster system enabled the spell caster to be able to shield and unaffected by anything, which was far too much and then shoot out from the shield making all others pointless.

The last encounter saw the one spell caster saved by a belt of + Con, an item to shield and a cloak of saving grace. These were the minimum requirement to keep the caster alive, but having them limits use of anything else. Without them the spell caster is in a bit of difficulty (dead). I've struggled to work out whether this is a one off or whether there is an easy solution. The problem is the spell caster then either needs to rest up more often or not use storage items, which are useful to speed up adventuring.

My perception is that there is little magic that within the current rules truly protects for very long and that the time taken to shield up is often better utilised elsewhere as combat is often over by the time a few spells are cast. Again I don't think this is necessarily to do with magic items.

It is hard to work through the issue itself, which in and of itself has made a response difficult (not sure I have got it right yet).


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 Post subject: Re: Magic Items discussion
PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 12:13 pm 
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Okay - some solutions to the protection issue:

I've beefed up the Armour domain a little - on review, those effects were far less powerful than the equivalent spells from PF.
  • I've increased the duration of the Arcane block effect, and made it +1 / 2 levels.
  • I've added a new effect: Arcane Mail - this grants +2 Def and 4/- DR, for 1 hour / level. It's roughly equal to the old PF Mage Armour spell.
  • I've allowed the Arcane Shield spell to be interposed once against an attack, blocking damage (like physical shields)

This does mean that the Armour domain becomes more of a "must have" domain - but that's what the Domain Power feats are for.

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 Post subject: Re: Magic Items discussion
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:50 pm 
I think the real issue is that we're at the point where we're either steamrolling things or playing Rocket Tag - and anything that helps to survive a hit is all but essential - making magic items appear indispensible. It's (in my opinion) what originally led to the christmas tree effect and is a product of d20 game design.

I've got nothing against letting casters quick-attune, but it will lead to sparkly trees.


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 Post subject: Re: Magic Items discussion
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 9:05 pm 
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I don't think the attunement needs to be different for casters. It matters little if it takes 10 mins or longer as we don't tend to so still that much except in real break periods. We rarely stop for 10 minutes at any stage. Let's run with it and see how it plays as in same for all?


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 Post subject: Re: Magic Items discussion
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:21 am 
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I had considered maybe mentioning an increase to the magic item limit as a class-based thing for spellcasters, but I wondered if that would just be the beginnings of power creep as Straf does seem to already have some of the highest damage available, though it is limited.

I think the issues of survivability for magic users should be something addressed in-game rather than by new rules. We as a party should realise the worth of a magic user and take better care tactically to ensure their survival.

TL;DR let's stick with the rule as-is for now and learn to take better care of our magical friends

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 Post subject: Re: Magic Items discussion
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:40 am 
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Right then - here's what I'll do:
  • Keep the changes I made to the Armour domain (the armour effects were relatively weak compared with vanilla PF / D&D)
  • Drop the quick attuning rule for Casters, but add that items you make yourself don't count against your attuning limit (I like that idea cause it seems fitting - why would you need to attune to the ring that you forged yourself?)
  • I've dropped the need to posses an item for 24 hours before you attune to it - the attuning limits and routine will stop people just casually swapping items around the party

Being more careful about scouting and preparing and maybe retreating now and then is something I expect in an E6 game - you are not invincible, and the fact that you will steamroller the majority of encounters shouldn't lull you into thinking that all encounters will be that easy.
One of the points of E6 gaming is that you will need to retreat, regroup and make a cunning plan to take down the bigger nastier monsters.

EDITED: Done - and deleted the 24 hour possession requirement before first attuning to an item.

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