Change font size
It is currently Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:37 pm


Post a new topicPost a reply Page 1 of 1   [ 9 posts ]
Author Message
 Post subject: HOMEBREW [D&D 3.5] House Rule: Combat Endurance
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 4:04 pm 
REASON: It occured to me that certain fights could go on for hours without either side tiring.
Anyone who has LRP'd or swung a 15lb haddock around for a few minutes knows it can tire you out.

So, I have been toying with the following house rule:

COMBAT ENDURANCE:
When engaged in melee, the character is considered performing strenuous activity. She can fight for a number of rounds equal to Base Attack Bonus + Constitution Modifier without any ill effects. (It helps if this is recorded somewhere on the character sheet)
After that period of time, you must make a DC 10 Constitution check every round to continue fighting. Each round, the DC for that check increases by 1. If you fail the Constitution check, you become Fatigued.
The DC is reset and the checks continue the following round of battle.
On a subsequent fail, the character becomes Exhausted.
A single is battle is considered over (and the DC effectively set back to 10) when either enemy is unable to engage (and is not performing other stressful/strenuous activity) or have agreed to 'take a minute to catch their breath' for more than 10 rounds.

The Endurance feat allows a +4 bonus on this check.

NEW FEAT: Mind And Body
This feat allows the character to add their WIS bonus to their Combat Endurance score.
Normal: The character only adds his/her Constitution modifier to their Combat Endurance Score.

I chose to base the rules around Base Attack Bonus to reflect a warrior type classes ability to use her technique and combat training to stay in the battle, and Constitution of course as a reflection of the characters over all fitness level.
This way, if for some reason a Wizard is up front swinging a great sword with a 0 con and a Base Attack of +1 he is going to tire quicker than a Fighter with +2 con and a +5 Base Attack.
Stands to reason considering they spent all their time reading dusty books instead of doing crunches!

I considered factoring in armour and weapon weights or maybe the non profficiency penalty applied to the Con check if the character does not have the appropriate armour and weapon profficiency feats, but I wanted to keep the rule as simple as possible.


Any thoughts?


Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 4:42 pm 
Given that a round is 6 seconds, it might be more viable to make it BAB + con score rounds. A 1st level wizard with a sword and Con 10 getting tired in the first 6 seconds sounds a little too fast, assuming that they trained enough to be proficient with the blade. The average person can last approximately 30 seconds to a minute at fighting levels of exertion, and I'd imagine that a trained fighter can last significantly longer than that.

On the whole, it's a good idea though.


Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:27 pm 
Noise Maker
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:52 pm
Posts: 1616
Location: 52°15'24.99"N 1°09'48.62"W, Sol III
Real Name: Set to Private
Daremonai wrote:
Given that a round is 6 seconds, it might be more viable to make it BAB + con score rounds. A 1st level wizard with a sword and Con 10 getting tired in the first 6 seconds sounds a little too fast, assuming that they trained enough to be proficient with the blade. The average person can last approximately 30 seconds to a minute at fighting levels of exertion, and I'd imagine that a trained fighter can last significantly longer than that.

On the whole, it's a good idea though.


In principle, this is a good idea - but it doesn't compare with the fatigue rules for any other activity. For example: you can swim as fast as you can for an hour before you need to make a check to avoid fatigue - that's 600 rounds.

You could say that the other fatigue rules are bull (because they are a bit), and re-write them to match your combat endurance, but without changing something, you've got quite a big discrepancy.

_________________
Running the Game - the loneliness of the long distance blogger
Tengwio, hinoin! U eo swaillir, aneo?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:40 pm 
Good points.

Sorry Altair, could you point me in the direction of the rule that states you can swim for an hour before needing checks? Thanks.

Hmmm, I agree that there should be come comparison with other rules of fatigue - but I dont think swimming is the one.
Any suggestions for comparison?
Sure, you can take 10 swimming if not exerted or in danger and float about for an hour, but do you think you could swing a sword around for an hour while someone is trying to cut your head off?

Maybe the DC should start at 1 and rise by 1 every round.


Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: hi all
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:55 pm 
In my experience combats mostly last at low level up to 10 rounds average four to six.
So even at 10 rounds that one minute is there any point to more complexity.
At higher level cobats are even quicker.
So in my view its a nice idea however its not worth investing much time with sorry.


Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:55 pm 
Noise Maker
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:52 pm
Posts: 1616
Location: 52°15'24.99"N 1°09'48.62"W, Sol III
Real Name: Set to Private
chamber101 wrote:
Good points.

Sorry Altair, could you point me in the direction of the rule that states you can swim for an hour before needing checks? Thanks.

Hmmm, I agree that there should be come comparison with other rules of fatigue - but I dont think swimming is the one.
Any suggestions for comparison?
Sure, you can take 10 swimming if not exerted or in danger and float about for an hour, but do you think you could swing a sword around for an hour while someone is trying to cut your head off?

Maybe the DC should start at 1 and rise by 1 every round.

I'm quoting the entry in the PHB for "Swim", in the skills chapter.

Yes, you're right, swimming can allow you to preserve your energy tactically and keep going doggedly, and is not a like-for-like endurance situation to be compared with combat. However, it's just one example of a fatigue rule in D&D that's at odds with your idea. Look at 'holding your breath' as a better example: that's in the same rule in the PHB.

Hit Points are - among other abstracted things - a model of a character's ability to withstand extended combat. As you fight, you lose HP, partly due to the fatigue of combat (as I said, amongst other things - see this article for further discussion).

I can't see your original ruling working, I'm afraid. Me, I'm a chronic asthmatic (I'd rule that I have at a generous best a 10 in CON, and thus no bonus), and I'm completely able to fight or otherwise vigorously exert myself for periods over 6 seconds without becoming fatigued. If, as I suspect, I actually have a CON penalty, then I am constantly fatigued? A monk, who at 1st level is trained to use his body as a lethal weapon and to strike more swiftly than any one else, must have a CON of 14 or higher to avoid the risk of fatigue in the second round of combat, and a CON score of 18 to make it through 24 seconds of fighting?

Perhaps if a fight goes on longer than a character's CON score + BAB, they should start to risk fatigue (i.e. probably more than ten rounds), but certainly not before. As Sean DM said, hardly any combat ever goes on that long.

_________________
Running the Game - the loneliness of the long distance blogger
Tengwio, hinoin! U eo swaillir, aneo?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 3:06 am 
Guys, i appreciate your opinion and you raise some valid points but...
Dont you actually think that this makes sense?
I am gutted that no one actually came up with an alternative or even a comment on my adjustment of maybe resetting the DC to 0.
Even when I asked for a realistic comparison (and not the swimming rules which is like comparing apples with pears) none was offered.

you are all suggesting that combat is not tiring (?!?)

Besides, Altair you are incorrect: The swimming rules state that after an hour, you could start taking non lethal damage from fatigue. This is in addition to the swim check required "once per round while you are in the water"
You have to make checks every round from the moment you enter the water not after an hour as you state. My suggestion does not give you non-lethal damage, they make you tired after swinging 20lbs of metal about for a minute!!!
The 'holding your breath' rules have nothing to do with the situation I am trying to adjudicate in a realistic manner!
I asked you for examples of a realistic rules comparisson but none was provided.

Sean: yes, most combat does not go on for that long, but when it does, I feel some rules have to be in place to govern how long a person can stay in a fight!
Or, lets just let them swing their swords ad-infinitum without tiring.
Jees.


Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 3:09 am 
Altair-the-Vexed wrote:

Perhaps if a fight goes on longer than a character's CON score + BAB, they should start to risk fatigue (i.e. probably more than ten rounds), but certainly not before. As Sean DM said, hardly any combat ever goes on that long.


Read the rule properly before commenting - the checks dont start until AFTER BAB+Con rounds.

Quote:
When engaged in melee, the character is considered performing strenuous activity. She can fight for a number of rounds equal to Base Attack Bonus + Constitution Modifier without any ill effects. (It helps if this is recorded somewhere on the character sheet)


Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:08 pm 
Noise Maker
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:52 pm
Posts: 1616
Location: 52°15'24.99"N 1°09'48.62"W, Sol III
Real Name: Set to Private
chamber101 wrote:
Altair-the-Vexed wrote:

Perhaps if a fight goes on longer than a character's CON score + BAB, they should start to risk fatigue (i.e. probably more than ten rounds), but certainly not before. As Sean DM said, hardly any combat ever goes on that long.


Read the rule properly before commenting - the checks dont start until AFTER BAB+Con rounds.

Quote:
When engaged in melee, the character is considered performing strenuous activity. She can fight for a number of rounds equal to Base Attack Bonus + Constitution Modifier without any ill effects. (It helps if this is recorded somewhere on the character sheet)

CON modifier and CON score are two very different things.

With CON modifier + BAB, you're proposing a duration in the order of seconds before requiring saves to avoid fatigue, whereas the CON score + BAB threshold is closer to a minute or so.
CON mod + BAB will result in low level characters risking fatigue after single rounds:
Quote:
When engaged in melee, the character is considered performing strenuous activity. She can fight for a number of rounds equal to Base Attack Bonus + Constitution Modifier without any ill effects. (It helps if this is recorded somewhere on the character sheet)
After that period of time, you must make a DC 10 Constitution check every round to continue fighting. Each round, the DC for that check increases by 1. If you fail the Constitution check, you become Fatigued.

So a character with a BAB of 0 and a CON of 10 is at risk of fatigue after zero rounds, which as I said, includes the highly trained monk class at 1st level.
Roughly 50% of the time, they become fatigued on the 2nd round of combat, and 25% of the time they're exhausted on the third round - less than thirty seconds into the combat.

Also, the Constitution check mechanic will never take into acount level (except through the BAB added to the duration before the check is required). It'd more in keeping with other fatigue mechanics to use a FORT save (with the same, or higher DC).

I don't believe this rule is an essentially bad idea - if you want to add fatigue risks to combat, this is the sort of thing you need. It's just that as written, it isn't realistic, balanced or practical. I can't recommend enough that you change to the CON score, and probably use FORT saves in place of CON checks.

_________________
Running the Game - the loneliness of the long distance blogger
Tengwio, hinoin! U eo swaillir, aneo?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post a new topicPost a reply Page 1 of 1   [ 9 posts ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot]


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron


Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
610nm Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net